oursin: Photograph of a statue of Hygeia, goddess of health (Hygeia)
[personal profile] oursin

Not just because I see no point to continuing the argument discussion I was having with someone in the comments of someone else's journal, but because this occurred to me as a bigger and more general issue.

I don't think you're going to get a decent healthcare service if you're overly concerned about 'the undeserving' and people freeloading on the system and therefore want to restrict any provision to people who are clearly and demonstrably in a position to need and deserve it.

I will concede, she concedes, that my feelings on this matter may be inflected by specifically British historical, classed, phenomena: the emotions aroused by the terms pauperism, less eligibility, Means Test, deserving and undeserving, scholarship child. And my feelings on these may well be influenced by the fact that I am closer to those generations for which those were very real things, and for whom the advent of the Welfare State was a wonderful thing.

Because at least until 1929, and in some areas until 1948, to get free medical care you needed: either to be provably below a certain poverty line, in which case you were eligible under the Poor Law (which was a huge stigma - cf people putting away money they could ill afford to avoid being buried 'on the parish'), or, if you needed hospital treatment, you had to get a letter of recommendation to a voluntary (i.e. funded by charitable subscription) hospital to say that you were a deserving candidate for treatment and care (I have among my papers a photocopy of a printed letter form of a leading maternity hospital, late 1930s, to be issued only to married women and unmarried women pregnant for the first time only - and some maternity hospitals, I suspect, did not even make that concession).

Male breadwinners might be covered 'on the panel' under National Insurance or workplace insurance schemes, but this didn't always cover their wives (except possibly for accouchements) or children.

As a result, when the NHS came into being there was revealed a vast amount of sometimes quite serious illhealth which had gone untreated because the individuals in question were not covered or could not afford it.

The concept of deserving/undeserving also resonates for me with people who aren't exactly anti-abortion as such, or say they aren't, but are against those (chimerical?) women who have abortions for 'frivolous' reasons.

The idea which I find problematic, because, well, it's Always More Complicated, and people's situations and perceptions of those situations are theirs and their sense of desperation is formed by where they're at, is that some people are deserving of something (but have to prove it, it's not exactly going to go by on the nod) and that others are trying to get away with something, and we have to be very careful to the extent of being punitive to make sure they don't get away with it.

That some people may not be entirely deserving and may be exploiting the system is I think something that just has to be accepted if people who 'really' (whatever that means) need the benefits are to get them as and when needed.

Systems need some slack: I think of the 'downsizing' 'lean and mean' mania of the 80s/90s and how problematic that is - there comes a point where the system needs a little flab in it.

(This reminds me of the scene in Thomas Armstrong's The Crowthers of Bankdam in which the university-educated son of the socially-climbing brother goes into t'mill and sees a man just standing around, reading the paper, apparently doing nothing. He tries to dismiss him and is told that the fact that he's standing around means he's good at his job - all the looms are running well and he will pick up at once if there's a problem about to happen and deal with it.)

And I really don't think you should say that people who are already working in hard and ill-paid jobs just to cover food and shelter should be working more hours or second jobs in order to fund health insurance. Partly because I strongly suspect that to make food and shelter they're already working as hard as they can (quite probably to the detriment of their health), and partly because when you're in that situation, long-term planning? - not a priority. Just surviving from day to day is hard enough.

I don't think suffering is good for people, really. So I am never really going to be able to encompass the idea that people who are already struggling, ought to be struggling harder, rather than given some kind of help.

But perhaps I am softened and corrupted by all the things that gave me a hand up.

Date: 2009-08-15 11:27 am (UTC)
shiv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shiv
I agree wholeheartedly.

I think that my views on this were formed after a longish period of unemployment in the last recession when there were no jobs to be had, and no amount of trying made any difference, but at least I was able to feed and clothe myself because there were benefits. But I also saw how determined you had to be to get benefits, and how much the system was stacked against claimants. The last time I was made redundant, it took them so long to sort out my housing benefit that I was nearly evicted. I was having palpitations.

And that is what it is like for people at the bottom end of society every day. You can't think of the future in that state, because you need all your energy to survive, and because something that costs a tenner becomes a disaster. No one should have to live like that.

I don't bedgrudge a penny I pay back into the system that helped me.

Date: 2009-08-15 12:02 pm (UTC)
nineveh_uk: Illustration that looks like Harriet Vane (Default)
From: [personal profile] nineveh_uk
And that is what it is like for people at the bottom end of society every day. You can't think of the future in that state, because you need all your energy to survive, and because something that costs a tenner becomes a disaster. No one should have to live like that.

This is why I object strongly to the "there should be a small charge so that people don't waste GPs' time" argument. It might work in Sweden, where the gap between rich and poor is relatively small, and there's a huge welfare network, but in the UK it will just mean that poorer people will put off going to the doctor. Which of course ends up costing the NHS more because for all the worried well (which I bet the people who would struggle with this aren't in any case) there are going to be plenty of things not caught at an early stage.

Date: 2009-08-15 12:17 pm (UTC)
shiv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shiv
Agreed. If there's a need to change someone's behaviour about that, then .. I don't know... stop them being able to make appointments but allow them to attend open hours clinics. Then they're not clogging up the system for those who need appointments, but they still get treatment. But whatever is done shouldn't be money related.

I prefer the open hours clinics myself becaue they make it much easier to fit in round work and other commitments.

Date: 2009-08-15 10:09 pm (UTC)
lyorn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyorn
(here via friends of friends)

This is why I object strongly to the "there should be a small charge so that people don't waste GPs' time" argument. It might work in Sweden, where the gap between rich and poor is relatively small,

This "small charge" is not only bad for poor people, but a bad idea in general.

First, unless it becomes somthing other than "small" it won't cover the cost of its administration. (As seen with the "Praxisgebühr" in Germany.)

Second, this always make it sound as if you went to the doctor's because there wasn't something good at the cinema. If you can afford to spend whatever "small charge" for fun, you can just as well waste the GPs time with it if that's your idea of a good time. If you cannot, you won't see a doctor.

Third, it creates an additional excuse for people who seriously dislike seeing a doctor, which is out of proportion with the actual price tag. Even if you can easily afford the money, you might comparison-shop and decide that you can get bored, and insulted by self-important people for free at the local train station.

Date: 2009-08-15 11:50 am (UTC)
shewhostaples: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shewhostaples
*cheers loudly*

Yes; this is exactly how I feel about it.

Date: 2009-08-15 12:01 pm (UTC)
green_knight: (Troll)
From: [personal profile] green_knight
This. Very much this. It's strange that people who keep animals know that you do checkups and take steps to prevent illness and act quickly in order to maintain productivity - but keeping a human workforce happy and productive does not seem to occur to people watching the bottom line. People who don't worry about survival will concentrate better. People who like their employers are more willing to go the extra mile. It's not exactly rocket science.

Systems need some slack: I think of the 'downsizing' 'lean and mean' mania of the 80s/90s and how problematic that is - there comes a point where the system needs a little flab in it.

As the NHS seems to be set to discover. If you work at 90% capacity during ordinary times, how will you deal with a flu epidemic?

Date: 2009-08-15 12:14 pm (UTC)
lexin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lexin
I agree with you.

But that's no surprise!

Date: 2009-08-15 12:41 pm (UTC)
egret: egret in Harlem Meer (Default)
From: [personal profile] egret
You are absolutely right about this, of course.

I'm always amazed at how anxious people are to sniff out corruption among poor people getting necessary aid and services, while being not at all interested in what the bankers are doing with the billions off the books.

Date: 2009-08-15 12:50 pm (UTC)
ann1962: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ann1962
I don't think suffering is good for people, really. So I am never really going to be able to encompass the idea that people who are already struggling, ought to be struggling harder, rather than given some kind of help.

Yes, compassion. I don't know why that is so hard to have for some.

Date: 2009-08-15 12:54 pm (UTC)
ironed_orchid: watercolour and pen style sketch of a brown tabby cat curl up with her head looking up at the viewer and her front paw stretched out on the left (Default)
From: [personal profile] ironed_orchid
I really couldn't agree more, or say it any better.

Date: 2009-08-15 12:58 pm (UTC)
sara: S (healthcare)
From: [personal profile] sara
Thank you. Quite.

Date: 2009-08-15 01:20 pm (UTC)
parthenia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] parthenia
Oh, I think I just came across that discussion...

It's a bizarre, insular, fake-meritocratic type of thinking, I find. 'If the poor simply tried harder, there would be no problems. I mean, I have never had problems.'

Given some of the attitudes being impressed, I'm pretty impressed that Americans actually have free schools.

Date: 2009-08-15 02:50 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
They get worse-funded every year. I cannot tell you how many places I've lived where people say "Of course I support education, but ..." and the "but" means "I don't want to pay the minimum possible taxes for it."

Date: 2009-08-15 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I like society. I think it's useful.

I have to say, I admire your politeness and fortitude in the face of that particular discussion. All I did was read the comments, and I wanted to hit things as a result.

Date: 2009-08-15 05:13 pm (UTC)
parthenia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] parthenia
Aargh, that anon was me - forgot I was logged out.

Date: 2009-08-15 01:31 pm (UTC)
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)
From: [personal profile] redbird
Anyone who thinks suffering is good for people is welcome to go find ways to suffer: let them drag into work when they should be getting an injury looked at by a doctor. Let them skip meals themselves, or sleep in an unheated apartment or on a park bench, or whatever they think the "undeserving" poor ought to have to put up with.

Date: 2009-08-15 01:37 pm (UTC)
matociquala: (Default)
From: [personal profile] matociquala
I was just having a discussion last night with a friend--a programmer--where it came up that in IT or administration, if you actually look busy and there's not an outside-provoked crisis, it's because you are bad at your job.

If you are good at it, stuff gets done as it arises, and you never look like you're working hard.

Date: 2009-08-15 02:49 pm (UTC)
ckd: small blue foam shark (Default)
From: [personal profile] ckd
Yup. The best sysadmin is the one who can go away for a week without anything blowing up, and who has left documented procedures for fixing the stuff that might blow up. (When they do return from vacation, they go back to automating the boring parts so they have time to work on new projects.)

Date: 2009-08-15 02:48 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
Anybody who wants to separate the deserving poor from the undeserving poor is beneath contempt, imho. She really WOULD have liked the workhouse system. She has deeply, deeply bought into the myth that everything she has she earned herself, and everybody else ought to do the same

(I didn't slap her down because I was dealing with stuff of my own; fortunately my friends stepped into the gap.)

The same issue comes up in the courts -- is it worse to have the innocent convicted, or the guilty go free? I think "innocent convicted", but that's not the current sentiment. Better to be cruel than to give people good things they don't Deserve.

Date: 2009-08-15 04:33 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] amaliedageek
I wonder if she comes from a background like mine and hasn't yet been slapped hard enough by reality to recognize how much of the escape was down to luck? (Not enough to ask, mind -- she's sorely trying my desire to strive for empathy with those with whom I find myself in violent disagreement.)

Date: 2009-08-15 05:14 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
That's entirely possible. "I clawed my way out, what's your problem???"

Date: 2009-08-16 03:43 am (UTC)
ironed_orchid: watercolour and pen style sketch of a brown tabby cat curl up with her head looking up at the viewer and her front paw stretched out on the left (Default)
From: [personal profile] ironed_orchid
The bizarre thing is that when people tell her stories about their problems with affording health care, she seems genuinely sympathetic, but she can't make the empathetic leap from this person who is talking to me and all those other people who aren't trying hard enough.

Date: 2009-08-15 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wonderlandkat
The thing that kills me is that, for many Americans, this is their chance to get health care. But instead of thinking about them and how it will make us all healthier (people with insurance go to the doc when they have swine flu!) it's all really dumb politics. Bureucrats will make the decisions eh? How do you think insurance works anyhow (I'm particularly peeved because I have had many many problems dealing with my Cobraed insurance while both paying them and being sick all summer).

Date: 2009-08-15 08:19 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
I have really really good insurance by American standards. VERY good. I still spend hours, during any given year, on the phone with the insurance company arguing about coverage. Last year I was too exhausted to deal with denials of my son's mental health coverage. This year, I have a pile on the refrigerator that I need to plunge into battle over.

Here from lj...

Date: 2009-08-15 05:36 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
"I don't think suffering is good for people, really. So I am never really going to be able to encompass the idea that people who are already struggling, ought to be struggling harder, rather than given some kind of help."

And why is this - compassion - so hard for some people to have? So what if there are a few 'freeloaders' or people 'getting away with something' in the system? Isn't it worth it, in order to provide for those people who genuinely do need help? Is it that those who can't have this compassion have never skated as close to the edge as others?

I have been paying particular attention to the health care debate here in the U.S. because it has a direct impact upon my family - my husband has MS. We're 'lucky' in that we have employer sponsored health insurance - but it's really bad. Thus far we've paid an average of $1,000 a MONTH in extra medical bills. I work full time and then teach dance at night so that we can pay them. But I'm 31, won't be able to work a sixty hour work week forever, so what then?

I would gladly, happily pay more in taxes for the assurance that if either of us lost our jobs we'd still have health insurance (COBRA, with his disease, is astronomically expensive). I would gladly, happily pay more in taxes so that the child living down the street from me could go to the Doctor when he's sick, or another close friend didn't have to worry about how to pay for her MS drugs when she gets laid off soon. Even if I never benefited from directly myself, I'd still be willing to pay into a system that offered that support for the people who need it most.

And lately the only word I've been able to use for those in my country who argue against these safety nets is - selfish.

- D
(dlandon on lj)

Date: 2009-08-15 10:17 pm (UTC)
lyorn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyorn
This.

Also: Dividing the deserving from the undeserving, however you define them, is a very wasteful enterprise. First you create barriers, then you create mechanisms to help the deserving over it, then mechanisms to avoid the undeserving getting the leg-up, you employ an army of spies and investigators to check if someone who seems deserving actually is, you abolish the right to privacy, and all the while people who are greedy or desperate are doing their best to outsmart you, and the greedy, having more energy then the desperate, are more likely to succeed.

The very same people who belive in the Laffer curve (which works on a simliar basic idea: you make it too hard on people, they'll cheat/system breaks down) won't get that.

Date: 2009-08-16 11:49 am (UTC)
threeringedmoon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] threeringedmoon
I read recently about a small program here in the US that takes a radical approach to treating the chronically homeless: rent them apartments. Unlike most "traditional" approaches to dealing with the chronically homeless, there is a minimal set of requirements. The recipient has to follow the regulations of the apartment building, and meet with a program worker on a regular basis (like once every two weeks.) They don't have to abstain from alcohol, they don't have to take medication, and they don't have to look for job or participate in education or training.


Date: 2009-08-18 12:09 pm (UTC)
aquaeri: My nose is being washed by my cat (Default)
From: [personal profile] aquaeri
Yes, this, exactly.

From my encounters with benefits, it's far easier for someone who wants to game the system to get money, than someone "deserving" who just happens to have anxiety and/or depression.

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