I have a theological question
johnswaney
8:25 | Oct 29
k
Scott Cunningham
8:27 | Oct 29
if a person is punished for somebody elses’ wrongdoing, and accepts this punishment, is justice served? stated another way, “is acquiescing to an undeserved punishment favoring justice, or injustice?”
8:28 | Oct 29
or is a person obligated to resist a punishment they don’t deserve
johnswaney
8:28 | Oct 29
this seems like a philosophical question posed last year as well from a book or movie you showed
Scott Cunningham
8:28 | Oct 29
really?
johnswaney
8:28 | Oct 29
yep
Scott Cunningham
8:28 | Oct 29
I don’t remember
8:28 | Oct 29
but it does relate to a book I’m reading
johnswaney
8:29 | Oct 29
don’t think it was posed by you though
8:29 | Oct 29
perhaps a student
8:29 | Oct 29
give me a few minutes to take in the question lol
Scott Cunningham
8:29 | Oct 29
I’ve been running through it for the last day or so, so take your time
johnswaney
8:41 | Oct 29
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2024096, last paragraph – he suggests that to be justice the offender must take the punishment
Scott Cunningham
8:43 | Oct 29
but that’s not necessarily the Biblical model. Like when God talked about the sins of the father being visited upon the third and fourth generation
johnswaney
8:43 | Oct 29
true – i’m still searching about that, but a cursory search brought me to that article
Scott Cunningham
8:43 | Oct 29
yeah
8:46 | Oct 29
I feel like the model put forth even in the New Testemant is a resignation to punishment even when it is undeserved. Like Stephen. When the people gathered around to stone him, he didn’t protest his innocence
8:49 | Oct 29
I guess there’s the sense that justice will ultimately be served
8:49 | Oct 29
but that’s no excuse for not opposing justice when it is apparent…., is it?
johnswaney
8:49 | Oct 29
honestly this isn’t a topic i’ve researched or have even had teaching on
Scott Cunningham
8:49 | Oct 29
yeah, ok
8:49 | Oct 29
me neither
johnswaney
8:50 | Oct 29
however, i came across the best form of sarcasm in a long time …
Scott Cunningham
8:50 | Oct 29
I just asked because you have a pretty good sense of the Bible as a whole
8:50 | Oct 29
what was that?
johnswaney
8:51 | Oct 29
Poster 1 Sep, 12 2006 at 11:11 AM
No the Bible is not “IN FACT” true. You are to naive…
Poster 2 Oct, 10 2006 at 12:18 AM
I need “to” point out, that you shouldv’e used “two” O’s instead of one. Like, oh Mr.Mclister, you’re “too” silly..The kind of “to” you used, is used like, Oh, Mr.Mclister, go “to” hell..
Scott Cunningham
8:51 | Oct 29
ha
johnswaney
8:52 | Oct 29
thanks for recognizing my knowledge of the Bible as a whole – unfortunately that doesn’t translate well to knowing the inner details – something i admittedly lack way too often
Scott Cunningham
8:56 | Oct 29
how does this sound to you: Personal justice, that is, not being punished for what you did not do and having wrongs done to you remedied is a value that one may or may not hold at their discretion, but until it is relinquished by the holder, the rest of us are obligated to see it done
johnswaney
8:57 | Oct 29
I’m thrown off by the “not being punished for what you did not do”
Scott Cunningham
8:58 | Oct 29
well it would clearly be unjust if I was put in prison for a crime I did not commit
8:58 | Oct 29
that’s all that means
johnswaney
8:58 | Oct 29
true
Scott Cunningham
8:59 | Oct 29
a just authority aught not to punish someone for an infraction they did not commit
johnswaney
9:00 | Oct 29
i’m reading this at the moment http://www.cs.unm.edu/~aaron/creative/justice.htm
Scott Cunningham
9:00 | Oct 29
the problem is whether justice is a right that can be waived, or an obligation that must be fulfilled
9:02 | Oct 29
but I think its both
johnswaney
9:02 | Oct 29
Personal justice, then, is the mother of legal
: justice.
9:03 | Oct 29
quote
9:03 | Oct 29
“The connection between personal justice and legal justice could be boiled down to a
: simple observation made by the Legal Realist movement c. 1900-1940 [6]. This
: movement observed that judges, like the rest of us, put their pants on one leg at a
: time, meaning that they are subjective participants in the legal system, thus allowing
: their concept of personal justice to affect the future definition of legal justice.”
Scott Cunningham
9:06 | Oct 29
I think this author is using the term differently than I was. he seems to be talking about personal justice as a person taking responsibility for their own justice. I was using it more to talk about justice as it applies directly to a person
9:06 | Oct 29
though the article still could be useful
9:06 | Oct 29
I’m reading it now
johnswaney
9:06 | Oct 29
page 2 is better i think
Scott Cunningham
9:11 | Oct 29
what I’m trying to come up with here is a framework to think about this issue outside of the law. for example, in the US, attempted murder is a criminal offense, and charges will be pressed regardless of whether the wronged party wants it or not. but in another country, this might not be the case and the “criminal” might need someone to accuse him if there is a wronged party
9:12 | Oct 29
so “legal justice” could look very different in those two situations
johnswaney
9:12 | Oct 29
and you’re questioning the “rightness” of the US system?
Scott Cunningham
9:14 | Oct 29
maybe…, though not as such. that’s not my goal, but that might be an implication
9:16 | Oct 29
I think Paul’s appeal to Ceasar is a great example
johnswaney
9:16 | Oct 29
God’s standard however exacts judgment without a human accuser. our ultimate condemnation is before him, regardless what others think of the situation – Jesus on the other hand made a retribution for that vicariously.
Scott Cunningham
9:17 | Oct 29
Agrippa said, “He could have been set free if he had not appealed to Caesar”
9:17 | Oct 29
which would have been the “just” result
9:17 | Oct 29
but Paul chose to reliquish his right to justice for a greater good
9:18 | Oct 29
God is our accuser. that’s why Jesus is pictured as our defender
johnswaney
9:19 | Oct 29
indeed
Scott Cunningham
9:20 | Oct 29
but the question remains, must we always act in according with the pursuit of our own justice, as God does, or can we give that us, as Paul did?
9:21 | Oct 29
is it only God that is obligated to pursue his own justice?
johnswaney
9:21 | Oct 29
i think that leads to a greater theological debate of sovereignty over free will
Scott Cunningham
9:21 | Oct 29
why?
johnswaney
9:23 | Oct 29
are we fully directed by the holy spirit and therefore pursue as God does, or do we have free will to put that aside – to the hyper extent of both sides – one cannot act on their own, while on the other God has not say but left to the will of man to decide
Scott Cunningham
9:26 | Oct 29
well, if one cannot act on their own, then there is no need for a basis in making one’s decisions. I think that to go there is the end of all necessity for moral reasoning
johnswaney
9:26 | Oct 29
i don’t disagree, but it nevertheless is a position held by some
Scott Cunningham
9:27 | Oct 29
maybe so, but it’s a position that I’m going to ignore, because I want to try to make the right decisions
johnswaney
9:28 | Oct 29
also is it possible that Paul’s choice was selective and not universal?
Scott Cunningham
9:28 | Oct 29
you mean that morality is not absolute?
johnswaney
9:29 | Oct 29
you gave an either/or – pursue as God does or give it up for the greater good
9:29 | Oct 29
God trumps Paul – so for Paul was that a selective decision or a demonstration of a universal action
Scott Cunningham
9:31 | Oct 29
I think that the answer to that problem might lie somewhere in the essential nature of God. We clearly can’t just do as God does at all times and call it right. If so, we could justify all sorts of things. Annhilating entire nations for example
9:32 | Oct 29
but, God could do nothing other than wipe out the Canaanites
johnswaney
9:33 | Oct 29
actually he had the israelites do it – and they failed
Scott Cunningham
9:33 | Oct 29
but if a human power decided to do that, we would say that it was appalling
9:33 | Oct 29
right
9:33 | Oct 29
ok, how about kill the firstborn child of an entire nation
9:34 | Oct 29
Him being God makes it right. that doesn’t mean we aught to imitate the action
johnswaney
9:35 | Oct 29
you’re right – people would see that as appalling – however, we have limited vision, focus, and faith – God is not limited by those things. True faith would require us to not waiver from God even through those decisions he made
Scott Cunningham
9:35 | Oct 29
so God’s relentless pursuit of his own justice might likewise be an action that we ought not to blindly immitate
9:36 | Oct 29
or at least not necessarily imitate…
johnswaney
9:36 | Oct 29
Revenge is mine, thus says the Lord
Scott Cunningham
9:37 | Oct 29
right, though there is also ample condemnation for those who do not take up the cause of the fatherless and the widow
9:38 | Oct 29
which is why I’m trying to create categories to see why one is acceptable injustice and the other is not
johnswaney
9:38 | Oct 29
i see
9:39 | Oct 29
however perhaps there are limits to the extent that we are to “take up the cause” – that is, our role is to go so far, to which, God then takes care of the rest
Scott Cunningham
9:41 | Oct 29
yeah, but there is a sense, I think, that if we are wronged and that wrong is not redressed, we aught not to worry, because God will take care of it, while if the helpless are harmed, we ought to be, at the very very least, upset about it
9:42 | Oct 29
thanks for talking about this by the way. it’s been quite a help in figuring it out. gonna be one heck of a Biblical integration lesson tomorrow
johnswaney
9:42 | Oct 29
indeed, however, what is the extent of our role in coming to the aid of the fatherless and widows? do we go so far as to exact revenge on the offender? or do we provide resources to aid them – leaving the actual revenge of the person to God?
Scott Cunningham
9:44 | Oct 29
Here is what Psalms says: “God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
9:44 | Oct 29
“give justice to the weak”
9:47 | Oct 29
though I see that this is somewhat rhetorical now that I look at the netbible notes
9:47 | Oct 29
Isaiah 1:17 is more clear… “Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow”
johnswaney
9:48 | Oct 29
i’m exploring…
9:49 | Oct 29
Matthew Henry says this refers to magistrates from a court of law stand point, not common man
Scott Cunningham
9:50 | Oct 29
that doesn’t look at all like the context…
9:51 | Oct 29
the whole passage is all about common man
johnswaney
9:51 | Oct 29
“This psalm is calculated for the meridian of princes’ courts and courts of justice, not in Israel only, but in other nations; yet it was probably penned primarily for the use of the magistrates of Israel, the great Sanhedrim, and their other elders who were in places of power, and perhaps by David’s direction. This psalm is designed to make kings wise, and “to instruct the judges of the earth’’
Scott Cunningham
9:51 | Oct 29
“Though your sins have stained you like the color red,
you can become 46 white like snow;
though they are as easy to see as the color scarlet,
you can become 47 white like wool. 48
1:19 If you have a willing attitude and obey, 49
then you will again eat the good crops of the land.
9:51 | Oct 29
right
9:51 | Oct 29
yeah
9:51 | Oct 29
I got that for the psalms verse
9:51 | Oct 29
so I moved onto Isaiah 1:17
9:52 | Oct 29
which seems to be pretty clearly directed to the common man
johnswaney
9:53 | Oct 29
The sermon which is contained in this chapter has in it, I. A high charge exhibited, in God’s name, against the Jewish church and nation, 1. For their ingratitude (v. 2, 3). 2. For their incorrigibleness (v. 5). 3. For the universal corruption and degeneracy of the people (v. 4, 6, 21, 22). 4. For the perversion of justice by their rulers (v. 23). II. A sad complaint of the judgments of God, which they had brought upon themselves by their sins, and by which they were brought almost to utter ruin (v. 7-9). III. A just rejection of those shows and shadows of religion which they kept up among them, notwithstanding this general defection and apostasy (v. 10–15). IV. An earnest call to repentance and reformation, setting before them life and death, life if they compiled with the call and death if they did not (v. 16–20). V. A threatening of ruin to those that would not be reformed (v. 24, 28–31). VI. A promise of a happy reformation at last, and a return to their primitive purity and prosperity (v. 25–27). And all this is to be applied by us, not only to the communities we are members of, in their public interests, but to the state of our own souls.
9:54 | Oct 29
Henry comments:
9:55 | Oct 29
Seek opportunities of doing good: Relieve the oppressed, those whom you yourselves have oppressed; ease them of their burdens, ch. 58:6. You, that have power in your hands, use it for the relief of those whom others do oppress, for that is your business. Avenge those that suffer wrong, in a special manner concerning yourselves for the fatherless and the widow, whom, because they are weak and helpless, proud men trample upon and abuse; do you appear for them at the bar, on the bench, as there is occasion. Speak for those that know not how to speak for themselves and that have not wherewithal to gratify you for your kindness.’’ Note, We are truly honouring God when we are doing good in the world; and acts of justice and charity are more pleasing to him than all burnt-offerings and sacrifices.
Scott Cunningham
9:55 | Oct 29
exactly
9:55 | Oct 29
but when our own justice is at sake, we can be satisfied with letting God take care of it
johnswaney
9:56 | Oct 29
yes
9:56 | Oct 29
and with that, my brain hurts, and thus, I’m going to bed
Scott Cunningham
9:56 | Oct 29
me too
9:56 | Oct 29
thanks again
johnswaney
9:56 | Oct 29
Not a problem
9:56 | Oct 29
Makes me glad I’m teaching on the miracles of Jesus tomorrow
Who’s Talking